Safe Place to RESOLVE AT&T/Arkansas Situation

[Adams No1Fan]

I've been told to come to this Forum. That the folks here are intelligent and it is a place to talk and organize our information. I had been on MyIdol -- was shut down 3x. I started a FB page -- but for some that was hard to figure out.... I have a strong team started and will send them here. Looking to add strength and a information as we go forth to tackle the beast of the BIG POWERS. We don't look to involve the contestants ( I am not looking to name names or point fingers). This is to accomplish having the TRUTH Delivered without smokescreens or damage control. Here we can work TOGETHER to achieve HONESTY.

Please come togther -- so we can and help make a change. Honest straightforward advise and help is wanted.

PS -- For those that say me on MyIDOL I was Lori20 and Adams DragonSlayer.

Thanks for all your help!

LORI

[jellibeanz3737]

Hello Lori and welcome...glad you came here. Also glad to see that you noted that this is not about the contestants, as they are not involved in our search for TRUTH in any way, shape, or form. So, we can be POSITIVE for Adam in all his endeavors, as well as support him in all of the other threads here. However, this thread will deal SOLELY with our search for truth. "Idolgate" has hurt all of the 28million or so of the viewers who have invested time, money, and emotion in following this season's AI. A FAIR loss we could live with, however what has been done is intolerable. If laws have been broken, we need to get on it.

I am assuming you will be our group leader...and want to say KUDOS to you Lori! If you do not want to be, that is ok, we can all consolidate and do it together if you prefer it that way. Please feel free (anyone)to delagate tasks to me if you wish. I have a limited amount of time due to work, but will do what I can.

I would enjoy being brought up to speed on what already has been accomplished (some of it I know, however many others may not). Maybe you could transfer some of it to this thread. Do we have an outline yet or a task list? Maybe, with everyone on board in one place, this will be easier to do.

Looking forward to working with you and the others...ADAM'S DRAGON SLAYER...love that name! Kathy

[Adams No1Fan]

Kathy -- happy to be here to carry on this work. Happy to lead --lots of experience there -- but need a team Effort. Invited the others to follow. One has great media contacts and another terrific research abiliites.

Seeking anyone with investigor/ reporter contacts. Also we welcome all attorneys of any caliber.

We need not to rehash the past but go forward by organizing. Need all original saved arricles, posts , blogs of incriminating information.

Please join us to obtain the COMPLETE TRUTH -- something we all Deserve !

[Grnbn1]

This Idol season has resulted in my first foray into online chatting, and even more recently a participant in actual posting....initially because of Adam, and then my discovery that I am not the only 50 year old woman to feel the way I do. It is becoming increasingly apparent that there are a huge number of middle-to-older aged women who have become new fans of Idol to the point of watching all the shows including commercials, participating in voting, purchasing phones, itunes, etc....things many of us would never have done if it weren't for Adam. We may not be able to text as fast as the teens, but we are likely to have a bit more money, and don't need anyone's permission if we want to spend it in pursuit of our newfound happiness. Some of us probably felt foolish in the first place voting for 2 hours, then 4 hours....trying to download stuff without asking unsupportive family members for help....being yelled at for risking viruses by clicking on questionable links in order to see anything and everything Adam. I am not particularly interested in changing any results....things seem to be moving very well for Adam...but if certain corporate sponsors take my time and my money while behaving in a less than stellar manner, then I feel like I've been played, and that does not sit well with me. I will be following all progress in regards to this matter, but save most of my time for celebrating Adam. FYI - by changing my home phone company from the sponsor to another, I discovered I cut my bill in half. Works for me, so I did. Sent them a memo as to my other reason, too, just for the record. Too much time has passed without adequate explanations for me to have given them the benefit of the doubt any longer. That's where I stand now. Hope I'm helping a little.

[jellibeanz3737]

Grnbn1...thank you for your kind words and moral support. This is a show of faith that we need and appreciate.

I want to begin by stating a few things as I see them. I am going to begin with some basic numbers...as to why we knew something was "fishy" at first, before we had any knowlege of any wrong doing.

1) The number of Kris fans vs Adam fans: I will start with the posts in the forum...Adam fans have been posting over 120 times more than Kris fans...this has varied, but not by much. Even if you add all of Danny's and Allison's fans posts to Kris's...this still does not even come to 1/3rd of the number of Adam's.
While this is hardly "scientific" proof of anything...it does show the overwhelming support that Adam has in sheer numbers.

Even now...if you go to their Official web sites set up by Sony/RCA...Adam has just under 16K members.
Kris has 160 members.

Ok...one can say that not everyone that votes joins any of the various web sites/fan clubs. So this is proof only that Adam has many more fans that do belong and do post. However...our numbers are staggering. Ok, Adam lost, we cried ourselves to sleep in disbelief.

Continued in next post...

[jellibeanz3737]

The day after. I subscribe to Google news for Adam Lambert. It is delivered to my email once daily. And guess what...Arkansas papers are "bragging" about their state getting out 38 million votes for Kris. How can this be...from a state of 2.8 million people. Something is not computing here.

And Robbie Willis, the speaker of the house for Arkansas, ALSO declared Kris the winner and said that Arkansas tallied 38 million votes for him. He wrote this at 1306 (military time for 1:06pm) on 5/20/09...which is roughly 6 hours before the grand finale where the winner would be announced. However, when he submitted to this to the paper...he forgot to change the time he actually wrote it.

How did he know this at that time? Ok, now begins a flurry of emails and postings on the AI site.

Another thing...what was it with the college kids? I did not see this with my own eyes, but someone told me that MIT had pledged 10million votes to Kris. (I believe someone saw it in Kris's forum pages). And then, we hear that they have what is called Voice Shout Outbound (phone dialers on their computers), which are apparantly able to dial the same number 200+ times/minute. Yes, they are very "tech savy"...but apparently not "bright" enough not to brag about it. This is a quote from Kris's forum pages..."THE FIX was successful. God I love technology. We outsmarted the system. The joke is on everyone in America."

Ok, this also gets a flurry of emails and posts. The media is alerted to "problems" and eventually it comes to print in some newspapers.

Continued in next post...

[jellibeanz3737]

Ok, the newspapers have reported this...and the fact that yes, Arkansas had a few ATT employees give a few "demo" phones to Kris fans. ATT gave some wimpy response...can't remember exactly, something like they would council their associates not to do this in the future. Fox finally gave a reply saying they are confident that the vote was correct. AND I BELIEVE THIS...THE VOTE PROBABLY WAS CORRECT...HOWEVER, THEY ARE NOT SAYING HOW THOSE VOTES CAME TO BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1) ATT very much minimized the facts. From what I have heard...they had stadiums full of people in several places in the state, set them up with power sources, Go phones, and gave instructions on power texting. They also had incentives (raffle prizes) to those who stayed the full time voting.

Now I have a Go phone...but had always used it to text 1 vote at a time. There were instructions in Adam's forum pages also, on how to power text...so I experimented. (texting to my friends)...even if I sent 10, they only received 1 from me. I called ATT...they said no, if it is going to the same number, it will only count as 1 call/vote. So I tried a different method with my groups. Same thing. Wish I had some instruction from an ATT representive!!

I also heard they were given loaded Go phones with California area codes...so they could continue voting after their own 4 hour window was closed. And I knew this could be done too...but how many of us can afford more Go phones?

And what was the problem with getting through to phone vote?? In the first 3 hours, I only got through 6 times due to busy signals. At the time, I thought this was wonderful...all those people voting for Adam. Finally, the last hour, I got through over 300 votes while still texting 1 at a time.

Continued in next post...

[jellibeanz3737]

My questions are this now:

1) Did ATT slow the "flow" to all of Adam's lines somehow? Did they open the flow for all of Kris's lines? Do they have the ability to do this? Does anyone know how we can find out?

2) Why didn't ATT offer us the same services (Go phone's and demonstrations on texting multiples)? Why would we even ASK them to...they are a corporate SPONSOR for AI. Who would ever think of asking them to do something so unethical? Obviously we didn't...

3) What about the new Hewlit Packard Plant? Conway was on their list of hopefuls...however, not a real contender and in their own words..."a hole in the wall" and unable to attract people to the area. Now I am hearing that due to all the media attention with Kris's win...HP has indeed decided to build there.

4) Was this their real agenda?

5) How do we prove all this? Do we have enough documentation to get the press REALLY interested? Enough that they will do the rest of the digging?

Ok, I only had 2 hours of sleep...but I wanted to get some of the background in here so anyone new would be able to get a handle on it somewhat. Now I am going back to bed. Carry on everyone, and I will join you again tonight. (Oh...I have probably missed a few things...so please feel free to add additional information.)

[Adams No1Fan]

Jellibean - -you outline most of what we've been discussing for days. Only thing that I see missing is a post from someone who's husband works for a "different" phone company. he explained how you can open up some lines extra wide and close others off.

Well since no one I spoke with (over 300 people) on the boards were able to get more than a dribble -- I got 5 calls in the first 3 hours calling from either cell or land lines. He said this point to the fact that Adams lines were closed. I also read a post yesterday that states that a phone company is able to check records and see exactly where calls came from and went. That someone had a different phone issue a while back and her phone company told her these records are there always.

So yes --AT&T is holding back. Sending out a few minimal words of damage control. Hope the public will shut up, forget and go away. Adam cannot say anythin AI does not want to be said --as his mother proved when she spoke with E Online she could not say much -- they are under contract with AI. I am certain AI wants everyone to think this is ok with all the contestants -- then we will be pacified and back off. I feel whether all of them are ok with this news is probably unlikely. Whether they were in the finals or not --they all worked their buts off for all those months to have a fair chance. I would doubt all this information surfacing of sponsor bias and states cheating would have probably upset ALL the contestants. It takes away the sheen of fans choosing any of them.

For the sake of allowing big businesss to run this country without the voice of the people -- to have the democracy voice we all take for granted as Americans -- someone of power and skills needs to step up and help get tothe bottom of this. Don't say this is just a tv show. It borders on big business making our choices. It points to crooked politicians and regurlar american people thinking nothing is wrong about cheating the sytsem. College student being proud and boastful of hacking a sytem -- makes one wonder our countries future will come from if we turn away and allow corrupt behavoir of our youth.

Sorry I cannot and none of us should turn away from these acts. It is not about hurting either Adam,Kris or any of the other contestants....it is about Demanding our given rights as Consumers in a democratic country.

[ForAdam]

Thank you for finding us a safe home for this topic!

I was part of the original thread and sent out 6 emails that night. I saved 14 pages of the thread but it was deleted before I could grab the rest of it. If anyone wants to read it I put it on my Mac account. If you click on this link it should download:
files.me.com/patti.miller/1usgal

I was going to do the same with the FCC thread in the GD section but it just got deleted.

I am working at saving the one going on now and will post it shortly. One thing that I read that was interesting:
"AT&T set up 50 display units with phones. Noone knows how many phones were in each display unit. (This is from the Arkansas Democratic Gazette)."
It didn't occur to me before that a "display unit" wasn't just ONE phone.

Does anyone know how to check your online account to see if texts went through? I know people did and it showed that no texts went through. I have 2 prepaid unlimited text accounts and couldn't figure out how to check. Did those people have regular service and not the pre-paid GoPhone?

Thanks again Dragon Slayer.

[ForAdam]

It looks we made some progress. This article says AT&T hosted texting parties - finally someone not buying into that whole "a couple employees..."

Recently posted on another forum:

FLEMINGTON, N.J., May 29 /PRNewswire/ -- A new national media study among 300 viewers of a news clip featuring the recent controversy surrounding the American Idol voting process revealed that the majority of respondents (59%) indicated that there should be a recount of the voting for the American Idol finale show.

The study was conducted by the MediaCurves.com(R) website on May 28, to obtain Americans' perceptions of the controversy involving Fox's American Idol show and Fox's sponsor AT&T, who hosted "texting parties" in Arkansas which were thought to give contestant, Kris Allen, an edge in the competition. To view agreement curves and detailed results go to: www.mediacurves.com.

The study also revealed that half of participants (50%) have a less favorable view of the AT&T brand after this incident was made public. In addition, a large majority (87%) reported that "power texting" (texting a vote multiple times for the same contestant) can influence the voting system for American Idol and similar competitions.

"The dial testing results for the CNN report study suggests that viewers were dubious of statements from AT&T as well as Fox supporting the American Idol results," commented Glenn Kessler, President and CEO, HCD Research. "Viewers' agreement levels increased when the American Idol methodology was questioned by the reporters, and plummeted when the corporate statements were quoted. It is clear that viewers agreed with the statements questioning the validity of the results and disagreed with rebuttals from AT&T and Fox," concluded Kessler.

[Tommyis18]

I'm so proud to be a member of this BB. If anyone read or posted on AI's MyIdol, I am sure it was not easy to avoid my posts about this topic.

I loved reading every post here. Everyone makes excellent points.

This post was going to end there, untill I could spend more time to write a long one. But I could not stop, because I cannot help myself. When goliath tramples the earth and everyone who gets in the way I can't keep silent. This controversy has been going on since day one of Idol.

While I think we all have slightly different outward reasons to avoid or to support the issues of this thread, I think our core reasons are the same - justice vs injustice. I hope our host, Michael, is a lot more tollerant than moderators on MyIdol pages.

I firmly believe that justice trumps wishful thinking. I do not for one second think any innocent people suffer when TRUE justice is sought. Some consider justice to mean punishment. I think that's a bad interpretation of it's use in the Bible and elsewhere. Scapegoating is not acceptable. Blaming or bashing is unacceptable, as well. Truth leads to facts and facts lead to truth. Together they lead to justice that helps to make people whole.

For all of us, who used posts, paragraphs, words or positive vibes to support the fight against this injustice, I strongly believe there is no attempt to remove anyone's title or to reflect negatively on honest committed fans. For those reasons I never liked the label of "TextGate". That's too narrow and only addresses one type of grassroots based action. The fact those became ethical violations and illegal actions, is a reflection of AT&T, not of fans who text voted. I think this is better called "IdolGate" or "RealityTVGate" or "VoteGate" because they are broader in scope.

I don't think it's about a few support parties on just one AT&T employee, either. That was an AT&T and AI scapegoat diversion. I can't say the same for any individual who knowingly and willingly engaged in criminal activity which did or did not harm some or all law abiding voters. I suspect there are different motives for individuals who did the illegal activity, and I am not all that interested, personally, in their excuses, anymore than in AT&T or AI excuses.

There were a lot of voting parties. The number of parties which used tactics to undermine the voting system, using AT&T corporate accounts on loaded phones can be found if the FCC searches records of AT&T, as they have authority to do. Also, there were determined individuals out to "screw' Idol, in any scheme they could apply - possibly the MIT system was one. From the corporate operational levels, there was a system service denial in place (a governor) for certain numbers in nearly all of the US. This is not unusual, it happens every day. It is illegal when it's done by a corporation which has a financial, contractual, and business advantage in a way that also affects a contest, which they sponsor. The facts do not support the AI and AT&T excuses and press releases. AT&T has admitted to illegal actions. How does admission suddenly make it ok? Why should the illegal actions be overlooked just because they are done and past?. Why were admitted illegal actions, which more than likely had no affect upon the outcome, unimportant? Illegality is not based on degree, count or level of a crime.

They sound like a serial killer saying, "Don't prosecute, it's all ok, I've stopped," and the prosecutor saying, "Why worry about this case - according to him, he acted alone and promised me he will get counseling," and the public saying, "We have to move on, so that means all of you are hereby required to have pity upon the killer, because you will heal from your near fatal attack - don't cry over what almost happened," and :"Though he killed your neighbor, you didn't like that neighbor anyway." Just change the names and they are the same excuses that were used by fans or spoilers on MyIdol. They sound like a loud fart during a moment of reflection in church - everyone pretends to ignore it but nobody can.

For me it is about legal vs illegal, above all else. All sorts of other adjectives, feelings, attitudes and impressions certainly tug at us: right or wrong, fair or unfair, rule abiding or cheating, helping or scamming, good strategy or devious, naive or snookered, fan or victim, and more. For me the resolution is not found by forgetting what's past or by making all things whole with an admission. I think our boat passed under that bridge. To make things whole now, it is about justice - achieving balance.

A lot comes down to trust and victimization. There are many areas where people took advantage of opportunities and that might be like bending rules, but it is not illegal. What is not ok, is that consumers were victimized by a combined, intricate interconnection of advantages and illegal actions taken by several large corporations.

Though AI says in certain circumstances that they filter out voters who take advantage of the system, AI does not address those who subvert and manipulate the voting process system. They have no incentive to do that. There really is no systematic approach for accounting to the public. Should there be public accounting? Yes, per the law. Yes, also because, the public is asked to continue to pay large sums out of pocket to support the contests (time, phones, cell phone texts, landline and cell calls, new service contracts). I am sure I'm not a party of one when I say, I do not trust nebulous claims of "we fixed it", or "corporations can self regulate through consumer free choice." It sounds like a cat agreeing to fix/neuter itself or agreeing to be abstain from reproducing. By using public resources, these companies have a contract with the public, and for that, we deserve a full accounting.

I also think all phone voting shows are victims like us, of the phone carriers. AT&T is at the center of the real problem. All the networks financially benefit from these phone vote systems. The show producers' enter into contracts with a phone carriers and they become the sponsor carrier. To vote, customers must make calls or send text messages - most particularly with power votes sent on the sponsor carrier. The phone carriers get new customers due to these game show phone vote systems. They sell hardware and enter in new service contracts as a result of these phone voting systems. The producers have every incentive to increase phone sales, as well as increase phone and text votes. From my understanding, per the contract the producers get a percent of new sales revenue and a percentage of call/text revenue. Thus, AI has every incentive to increase phone and text votes. The carriers, particularly the sponsor carrier, have every incentive to manipulate the volume of calls and texts. They reduce the flow by narrowing the pipeline for certain phone numbers, to maintain service for other customers, keeping those customers happy. Reducing the flow by narrowing the pipeline for certain phone numbers, has another advantage which equates to a huge financial benefit by paying out less revenue to the producers. Less revenue paid out per the contracts to the producers is a huge incentive to manipulate and subvert the system. Remember how General Motors used to thumb it's nose at the Government ("we the people")? Now "we the people own Government Motors.

The reason why the power texting process is so important is another long explanation. It boils down to math and incentive. Power texting is fast, easy and can multiply one person's vote count from hundreds to tens of thousands. Multiply that by several hundred people in one dorm or town, you have tens of millions. Tens of millions x thousands of dorms and towns means trillions and a lot of money for AI, paid by the phone carrier. The real surprise is not that there were 100 million votes, but that there were not 900 Trillion votes.

Maybe Idol really has less fans and less voters than in 2003. In 2003 just two of the nation’s phone carriers reported 230 million calls above normal levels. The carriers link the increase to the time period of Idol voting. Yet, Idol claims 24 million votes were recorded. Just 24 out of 230 million! Third graders would say it does not compute. 'American Idol' voting overtaxed U.S. phone systems by Wade Paulsen, 5/27/2003

In 2009 they say 100 million votes were recorded. That's ONLY 10 million more than the previous week with twice the voting time. Does this mean only a few viewers of the 26 million viewers bothered to power vote, or that only a few power voters got their votes recorded, or that power votes did not record at all and 26 million people only got through on average 4 times each during 4 hours of calling? None of it makes sense, in a country where billions of calls and texts are made each day. Does Idol overload the system every week in the competition? Is the database overloaded or does it crash, leaving few voters to actually get in? The numbers really don't make sense, and I think statistically, it's easier for the average dog to build a rocket and land on the moon than ONLY 100 million votes were cast. If votes are cast and not recorded, why vote, which means why watch, which means there is logic to the reduced viewer ship of AI each year.

I'll cut off there for now, though I have many other thoughts. BTW, I saved all my posts to the MyIdol threads, because I noticed every thread dealing with the voting or with "gay" questions, were deleted. I can recall from the grave any of those that anyone wants to see.

T.

Adam Onward !!!

[abbey260]

Quote from Tommyis18: I'll cut off there for now, though I have many other thoughts. BTW, I saved all my posts to the MyIdol threads, because I noticed every thread dealing with the voting or with "gay" questions, were deleted. I can recall from the grave any of those that anyone wants to see.

Would you please post these on this forum? I did not get to read all of them on the official AI site. In the middle of reading and going to another page, the whole thing would disappear. I for one would like to read what you posted there.

FYI, I have never (before Adam Lambert) posted on any forums, nor read any. I am 65 years old, computer literate, but never in my life have I been so drawn to a celebrity. I am very interested in this subject. I bought a GoPhone and paid for unlimited texting. I don't get very good service where I live, so drove 1.5 miles away from my home, sat in a grocery store parking lot and text voted for 2 hours. I was able to get some more voting in after I got home, and sometimes had to go out into the yard to do this. 4 hours of my time (plus the $40) was a commitment on my part to see Adam crowned the Idol. I was totally shocked at the results. I absolutely believe there was fowl play. I think the phone lines not being available is the major problem and if investigated would be easy to prove.

Thank you for your posts, I enjoy reading yours (and others).

[Adams No1Fan]

Great thoughts and work -- all ! So happy to have all of you on this thread. Jellibean got Michael's permission for us to be here -- so I think this time we are good. Tommy -- thank you for all your input and of course for saving our original threads. The first one I was Lori20 and when they suspended me I am still DragonSlayer2 -- the Face Book account is AdamsDragon Slayer.

If possible continue to reach out all for those that have as much information as possible. Once we have this all organized we need to get with some key reporters willing to continue this story. The power of strong media is the best way for AT&T and AI not to be able to escape this charade. If pressed in print -- they will have to succumb. If we can get a class action suit for all those folks charged for text that were not recorded --WOO HOO --- money does talk!

Let me know what contacts you make and how who responds favorably!

THANKS SO VERY Much! Team Work is Dream Work.

LORI

[Glamberteena]

Many people posted on the AI forums that they were purchasing as many as three AT&T Go Phones for the sole purpose of voting in this competition (at about $20 per phone and $20 for unlimted texting= $40 plus per person). These people were induced to purchase these AT&T products for the sole purpose of voting for their favorite contestant on this very powerful television show.

If anyone had believed that their votes would not be counted in the final tally, or that this whole "voting" process is deeply flawed and not legitimate, would they have purchased these phones/texting packages from AT&T? No, absolutely not. To date, I have not heard anything from Fox, AT&T et al. that officially responds to the many inquiries regarding whether or not our votes were actually counted in the final tally. Fox & AT&T are standing by the results, but they refuse to release any numbers, and Telescope, the third-party that audits the vote, has not released any official statments that I am aware of. Refusing to release data is not typically the response of a company that has nothing to hide.

The finale drew 28.8 Million viewers -- an interesting question is how many of those 28 million purchased Go Phones for the sole purpose of voting for an AI finalist? Multiply that number by about $40 per Go Phone.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/05/21/wednesday-ratings-american-idol-finale-surprise-draws-288-million/19222

These are hard economic times, and many people were induced to spend their hard-earned money on AT&T products, yet Fox & AT&T refuse to officially CONFIRM anything, other than that they stand by the "results" (which they refuse to release). They simply will not release any numbers with regard to this vote.

This refusal is raising legitimate questions both here and internationally.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10575622

One more point: AT&T did NOT retract the 38 million votes from Arkansas out of the total of nearly 100 million votes. AT&T spokesman Ted Wagnon merely said that he could not CONFIRM that number, he did not say that the number was incorrect. His exact words were, "AT&T does not divulge or confirm how many votes were cast in each state." That statement does not specifically retract the 38 million figure, and does not say that the number is incorrect.

http://www.fox16.com/content/idolminds/story/Conway-reacts-to-Kris-win/sv8BNSsGY0G8GRZWSr0fRw.cspx

P.S. I agree with Tommy -- this is not about who won or who lost. This is about whether or not the American viewing public was defrauded into spending time & money on this very powerful television show.

[Petunia16]

Great posts on this topic, and I agree Tommy, it's about justice, and about legal and illegal, very simple really...I'm in kansas and I had the experience of landline voting, not getting through, and then got in four or five, and then nothing again...I remember wondering if the MIT guys were clogging the lines...and since I was so determined, I didn't stop even with busy signals, so I know for sure that that pattern lasted for about 3.5 hours and then boom no problem getting through but by then it was too late.

[ltmagic1]

Great posts on this topic, and I agree Tommy, it's about justice, and about legal and illegal, very simple really...I'm in kansas and I had the experience of landline voting, not getting through, and then got in four or five, and then nothing again...I remember wondering if the MIT guys were clogging the lines...and since I was so determined, I didn't stop even with busy signals, so I know for sure that that pattern lasted for about 3.5 hours and then boom no problem getting through but by then it was too late.

As I posted on another thread, I had EXACTLY that experience in Wisconsin.

[mactrixnz]

Hi everyone, I had just posted the bulk of what follows on the industry perspective thread, when the post about this new thread popped up, so thought it was more relevant here than on that one - so have posted it again.

I just re-read our NZ Herald article again, and saw something that really "pops" out at me. Didn't Fox and AT&T say something about a few SMALL parties were held in Arkansas????

NZ HERALD said:- The firm made no similar efforts to support his co-finalist, the eventual runner-up Adam Lambert. Scandalously, its representatives also provided Allen's supporters with lessons in how to send so-called "power texts" - which send 10 or more votes at the touch of a single button. Bobby Kierna, one of the 2,000 guests who attended one of the events, told reporters that she had voted for Allen n a university chum of her daughter n 10,840 times in the AT&T "texting zone" that had been set up there.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10575622

Yeah, 2,000 people - real small huh!

What gets me here is how much pre-planning must have gone into this. Firstly, you don't have 2,000 people turn up randomly at someone's house on the spur of the moment for crying out loud. A venue, or venues that could hold that many people had to be organised in advance.

Secondly, the article says at "one" of the events - how many more were there out there?

Thirdly - an AT&T texting zone - sounds like a professionaly set up "booths/stations" type of situation (which would also need to have been set up by AT&T staff well in advance). Which is all a very far cry from "a few employees getting carried away in the enthusiasm of the night" and "handing out a few demo phones for people to play with" - puh leeeeezzzzzzeee.

Fourthly - there were reporters there??????? How did they know about it?????

IMHO, I actually think the vote was really, really, really close - and if FOX was forced to a recount, or to have to reveal final totals, or have to let a totally different independent contractor go over the detailed data from that night - and then take into account the texts that were not confirmed in time, the busy lines due to line blocking (geez that makes me angry), the confirmations for Kris instead of Adam and all the other crapola that has gone on - then I think Adam would have won by a country mile! My guess is that Fox and AT&T know this and CAN'T reveal, because then not only would they have egg on their faces (which they have anyway), but would be in an untenable position of what to do about. What do they do - de-throne Kris and pop Adam up there - I don't think so. So they are just zipping their collective mouths shut and praying the whole debacle will just "poof" go away. Really glad to see it hasn't tho! Although I am sad for Kris, that he hasn't had a nice squeaky clean win - but in some ways this whole thing isn't about the "guys" anymore, but about the unfair voting system currently in place for shows like AI. Goodness I care about how unfair it is and I couldn't even vote at the time - just had to stay glued to a live blog on the AI forum. But I can remember the panic posts coming in from people who couldn't get through, or were not getting confirmations and saying how they texted and voted till their fingers bled.... now that is passion and commitment!

Another question for me is how come the press don't know yet about the "line blocking" thing that was going on with those students. That is truly disgraceful! Can that also be leaked to the press anyone?

[jellibeanz3737]

Hello, Thank you Tommy for your considerably brilliant take on all this and for your support. Thank you , Foradam for your mediacurves link, very interesting. And Glamberteena, thank you for your links as well re' the numbers and the N.Z. article. Thank you for your support petunia, itmagic and abby, and for sharing your experiences with us.

Once again, I want to clarify our objective, and to say again that this thread has nothing to do with Adam or Kris. We must continue to celebrate and to positively support Adam in our other threads on this board.

I have noticed on the AI boards as well as the Adam official site...mentions of a "vote recount". I want to clarify here again...THAT WOULD NOT DO ANY GOOD AND IS NOT WHAT WE ARE ASKING FOR. A vote recount would just show that Kris got more votes than Adam. Period. The PROBLEM is...how Kris and Adam GOT THE VOTES THEY DID OR DIDN'T GET...WHAT MANEUVERING TOOK PLACE?

Our objective is in seeking the TRUTH and JUSTICE which is our American right, as citizens.
1) What unethical and illegal practices did ATT take part in when swaying the vote for Kris? How much of this can we prove, via research?
2) What effect the college kids had on swaying the vote to Kris. What extent of the votes came from the devices they used? Can we find out?
3) AI says they have methods of detecting large blocks of votes and throws them out. Well, where were the "vote police" in this instance? Did they indeed throw any votes out? More research needed.
4) To what extent was the Arkansas state government involved in this? And for what reason?
5) Was the reason to get Hewlit Packard to build their new plant there, thus boosting their state economy? Again, more research needed here.

While we are waiting for some others to join us...there is a lot we can be doing:

1) Organize and catalog what articles/forum posts/any research we have already done. Make a list.
2) Research via the web. ATT, HP, Arkansas state government, Arkansas newspaper articles within the past 6 months, paying particular attention to the economy there, and mentions of HP. Research AI voting practices from the past. Research the Voice Shout Outbound. Probably a lot I haven't thought of, but this is a start, and everybody...feel free to add more and other ideas are also welcome.

We must have all the proof we can get that points in the direction of the TRUTH.

I am going to start by researching Voice Shout Outbound and AI voting practices/controversy in the past.
Thanks again everyone...YOU ROCK! Kathy

[jellibeanz3737]

Thanks Mactrixnz...I must have been typing my previous post when you posted yours. Yes...that is another area to research from perhaps, the Arkansas papers on line. How many voting centers were there actually? I heard, and can't remember where, of one stadium of 80,000 people. But, I will eventually look through all my mess here and find it. Some I have saved on line, some I have printed out. I have had today off and had some family stuff to do, but am also off tomorrow, and hope to get my office here organized and make a list of just what I do have. And do some research. Kathy

[Glamberteena]

Here's a link to a story in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette:

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/260644

According to this story, AT&T provided more than 30 cellphones, provided instruction in how to power text, and had a roped-off area known as an AT&T "texting zone" with a 15-foot AT&T logo balloon and tables with AT&T tablecloths at the Peabody Little Rock Hotel on May 19. AT&T staffers handed out fliers instructing people in how to power text. A woman at the hotel reported voting nearly 11,000 times for Kris using the facilities at the "texting zone."

In addition, at Conways' Estes Stadium, AT&T had 50 text-ready phones available at a voting party and had a charging station set up for people to recharge their personal cellphones and AT&T staffers wearing polo shirts with the AT&T logo available to hand out fliers and instruct in power-texting.

Here's a link to the orignal story from the Arkansas Democrat Gazette reporting on the voting parties for Kris Allen in Arkansas. The story has been placed in their archives, and I cannot access the full story, just the first line. Its called "Throngs of Kris Allen Fans Cheer, Vote for Idol Finalist."

http://www2.arkansasonline.com/news/2009/may/20/throngs-kris-allen-fans-cheer-vote-idol-f-20090520/

[Adams No1Fan]

Kathy:

I just noticed you are in Georgia. Where ?? I am too. If not too far -- maybe we can meet and really get some research done.

LORI

[Karen]

Hello Adams No1 Fan, and everyone else here.

Count me in! I am not an attorney and have no real investigative training, but I am a trained analyst and am pretty good at putting together spreadsheets that can demonstrate complex data in an easy-to-understand way. I'd be happy to help in that arena if I can.

I've been posting on various blogs, etc., trying to get the word out about the line blocking ... it seems the media is only interested in the "couple of over-enthusiastic AT&T employees providing text phones," but obviously that is just the tip of the iceberg. I wrote a letter to the New Zealand paper outlining some of the issues, but of course haven't heard anything back from them.

I agree that this is not about Adam and/or Kris, that our goal is justice for the wronged viewer/voters. I have an additional goal, and that is to see that Idol knows they will lose huge numbers of viewers if they don't fix the voting system for next year. I usually end my posts with that.

Here is the last post I put on the AI Forum, and surprisingly it hasn't gone "poof" yet:

AI Forum: Just One Tainted Finale Vote Invalidates Idol
Posted 5/30/09

If we only complain about the A&T free phones, we are missing the biggest part of the fraud. We need to be sure ALL FACTORS are considered if there is to be an investigation or any publication of existing data.

Some people are saying the vote was close, others say it was a landslide in Kris' favor. I believe that the TALLIED vote count was not close, because of all the missing, uncounted votes. This may include votes lost due to jamming (more on that below), text votes that were sent but confirmations were never received, and text votes (and I even heard of a few voice votes) where Adam was dialed but the confirmations were for Kris. So of course Idol can't release the figures, because they will be so out of whack they could never support them. And the Adam haters would just say it proved their contention that Kris won by a landslide.

College students boasted of jamming Adam's lines for the first 3 hours ... so there may have literally been millions of votes for Adam that were never counted, and the total vote figures support that (see below). Also, the methodology for doing the jamming was to use Gizmo software to call Adam's lines and not hang up, while at the same time making rapid calls to Kris' lines. the students claimed they were logging 7.5 votes for Kris to every one for Adam. AI is supposed to be able to pick up rapid calls from the same number, but did they even try? Those Gizmo votes should have been thrown out. When Adam's fans inquired of the AI Forum moderators, they were told not to use Gizmo because it wouldn't be counted.

Have you noticed the vote count was jumping each week after the Top 5, but increased very little for the finale?
Top 5 - 47 Million votes
Top 4 - 64 million votes (an increase of 17 million)
Top 3 - 88 million votes (an increase of 24 million)
Top 2 - 97.5 million votes (an increase of only 9.5 million votes)

The finale usually has the greatest number of votes. This year the voting period was doubled from 2 hours to 4 hours for the finale. Arkansas had 38 million votes (not actually denied by AT&T; they just said they couldn't confirm it). Yet the increase was way less than in previous weeks ... perhaps there are some votes out there that weren't counted?

There is another boast that someone was able to cross some lines so that when people dialed Adam's numbers the calls were routed to Kris. Many people have reported that their text confirmations, and some voice confirmations, were for Kris when they had actually dialed Adam. These calls also wouldn't show up in a recount or publishing of results.

These students say they started practicing this before the finale, after Kris ended up in the bottom 3, so it may very well have affected Danny in that he perhaps should not have been voted off when Kris made the finals.

Idol got what they wanted, big shocker finale and 2 Idols for the price of 1, so they had no incentive (and not much time) to investigate the problems. It would take a huge audit/analysis to sort this out ... perhaps by comparing the average vote per minute on each line during the season to the vote-per-minute data for the finale, which should indicate if there was some kind of jamming going on. Then adjust for time variance (i.e., if votes fall off after the first hour on a 2 hour night, when would they fall off on a 4-hour night, etc.)

I have no proof that the above things actually occurred, but it is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THEY WOULD NOT HAVE OCCURRED IF THERE WAS A ONE VOTE PER PHONE RULE. No one knows for sure who would have won under a one-vote rule, but at least they wouldn't have to carry the black cloud that this year's controversy has created. And the fans would not feel that all the time and money spent on voting was wasted.

We need to be sure that TPTB know we never want another Idol to have to deal with this kind of controversy. I plan to vote with my feet next year if Idol doesn't fix it. Cheat me once, shame on you; cheat me twice, shame on me.

Let's tell Idol that 1 person x 10,000 votes is meaningless; 1 vote x 10,000 people speaks volumes. Let’s also tell them that we want to spend 2 minutes, not 2 hours, voting for our favorite.

[mactrixnz]

Hi guys - wow this thread is turning into a really interesting place to be!

I went back to AI board to see what was going on there - since so many people have commented about any threads related to gripes about the voting seemed to disappear. So I found one thread that had managed to get to 8 pages and I plonked this there:- (not sure if the url I left there will work - but here's hoping..)

Hey people - early on in the competition I was lucky enough to hook up with a very intelligent and sane thread on these boards. After the finale, the OP (by popular demand) created a new site to continue the original thread.

Today, that site has multiple threads - BUT - a new one was created today with regard to how angry voters are at the "system" and they are rallying support to actually do something about it - maybe you can help!

It MUST BE STRESSED that this thread has nothing to do with who won AI (most Adam fans are way over it now - sniff) - but solely to do with making a statement about who they (the public) are as consumers and how ripped off and unhappy they are with the way they have been treated.

This is the thread if you are interested - and once again it has NOTHING to do with who won! OK!!!! This is not a thread for ravings, but one of intelligent sharing and caring.

Hopefully - if my post doesn't get pulled - it will bring some more support to your cause...

Cheers, Cherie

PS:- Glamberteena thanks for your links - managed to get archives up for that day, but then had to suscribe to newspaper and then pay money to download article.

Karen - many ta's for writing to NZ paper - gotta say however... lol - they will probably be "gobsmacked" to have received a letter from the US with regard to their article. NZ is a long way from what is happening in the US and the NZ Herald will probably will have no idea whatsoever about what is going on in these boards - but hey - if it can be the seedling of an INTERNATIONAL ground swell about today's reality shows voting system worldwide - then so be it! Bring it on! Well done!

[24HRdreamer]

Great thread.

Even though I wanted Adam win...to just get that VALIDATION he so deserves, I also have not been a fan of their voting situation.

Karen...yes a one vote per phone line would be great, BUT....we also have to consider most households have more than one person living in it, and others should be able to vote as well.

I think a 5 vote per phone line would cover most situations if there just happens to be others in your family that like other contestants, and want to vote for them. Now of course by allowing 5...a person could vote 5 times on their cell phone...5 times at a pay phone down the street...etc...so is it perfect?...no, but it does cut down many millions of votes. And of course you will have situations where there is only one Idol fan in the house, and that person can use all those 5 votes for their fave contestant.

Dancing with the Stars has some great voting ideas. From what I read they have 30 minutes to call in a vote. (I LOVE THAT.....allows us all to get some needed sleep)...and it goes by how many contestants are currently still on the show for that week), so if there is 4 contestants left...guess you can only vote 4 times by phone. But I read they do allow Text voting until noon the following day (not sure if they have limits on those).

If any of you remember the GREASE reality show (when they were searching for a new Danny & Sandy), they had a 5 vote limit, and what I really loved (which would have saved some past IDOLS on other seasons)....was the Judges save (better than the IDOL save). Even though they allowed America to determine the bottom 2....if the BOTTOM vote getter (in their minds) was MUCH better than the other person in the bottom 2....they could save that person! And this is something they could do EACH week.

But here is something I thought of just recently. We all know (especially prior to this season) that not all fans of IDOL that vote....frequent IDOL boards online, so there is many people out there that really have no clue what goes on with the voting. (Meaning us all trying to out vote each other as fans). But because of Adam it appears he has brought many into this online world for this season...lol And of course we are seeing huge numbers on Adam's forums on the IDOL site. Take a look...he is VERY close at topping the IDOL's general thread...by both Threads, and posts! and even though Kris is loved by many...his numbers are VERY low still. So to me...(only based on these 2 people in question in regards to this years voting)....It appears there are ALOT of IDOL fans that are connected to the internet. Actually a good part of America has access to the internet now.

So....if this show wanted to get to a more honest way of voting....could there be a way of REGISTERING to vote? Where a fan would have to register with their name and some info, and then get APPROVED to vote ONLINE. Now of course we have seen MANY ways of phone voting...texting etc, by some very smart fans...so of course there could be ways that fans CREATE FAKE official voters (yes I am sure that could happen)....BUT I am sure as long as they could make our info VERY private...there could be a way they could keep it all to a minimum. We know they can limit votes per phone line.....so I am sure they could fix something up for OFFICIAL online voting.

I do think many of us put out a lot of energy on voting this year (even though Adam did deserve it), but it really was alot of wasted energy on something that was not guaranteed. Even if Adam won...I still would feel their voting system is very flawed if they are truly looking to see who REALLY is American's vote.

A friend of mine that is a concert photographer, and a very smart man just recently mentioned to me that he thinks IDOL should have a panel of judges...who decide the singers fate each week. He mentioned maybe having 2 judges from each style of music, or era's of music. This panel then would have to discuss weekly who they think has the potential to be a great artist, and who can't make it. They could do like Dancing with the Stars...and make it where both the Judges vote, and the Fan votes get totalled together.

I do think somehow America does need involved, but I just don't want to have to see another Season of voting like we did. Of course this is not the first year like this...but its a year that probably had more passionate fans involved.

Maybe a 30 minute time frame could be the key...I know many people that just won't vote for 2 hours FOR ANYONE..lol but I do know that they would consider doing it for 30 minutes.

There really is no sure fire way of voting...unless you allow only the judges to decide. But those are just some ideas to toss around. I do know something needs done....I know some may think people feel this way only because of Adam not winning.....but I do believe even the Kris fans think the voting system is not right.

The focus needs to get back to actual talent...and not our voting talent. And not about reading those BIG numbers on air.....even talk show hosts end up saying...100 milion voters (um sorry...not 100 milion voters....100 million VOTES)....huge difference.

[mactrixnz]

The focus needs to get back to actual talent...and not our voting talent. And not about reading those BIG numbers on air.....even talk show hosts end up saying...100 milion voters (um sorry...not 100 milion voters....100 million VOTES)....huge difference.

Yeah, 24hrdreamer - perfectly said!

[Karen]

One vote per, five votes per ... probably doesn't make a lot of difference ... just the lower the number the less incentive to set up elaborate schemes to cheat. if a family doesn't have enough devices to record differing views, they just might have to discuss it and compromise. What a concept!!

Voting by internet is simple ... the website accepting the vote just notes the IP address of the vote, and only allows it once, or however many times it is set for. I think SYTYCD does that (although I think they have you register with an email address. Not good, I have several email addresses!), and VoteNumber1, and lots of other sites that do polling. Once you have voted, it won't let you vote again. And, it shows you what the results are at the time you vote! VoteNumber1's Idol vote actually allows one vote per day, and then resets the counters each week before that week's performances. They collected 9.2 million votes on the final week of Idol, and had Adam WAY ahead. They have taken down the actual vote split for that week, but their current poll of "Which male will have the most successful career?" has 75% Adam, 22% Kris, and 3% Danny.

[adamakesmerock]

I am so happy to finally find you guys - this scandal has been haunting me! I would like for the whole truth to be out there - everyone now knows about the A T & T involvement, but I know there's more. What are you all planning, and what can I do? I have e-mailed two Houston reporters - one is known for his search for the truth - he is responsible for Judge Kent's demise (he had sexually harrassed his employees and is in jail now).

In touch,

Carolyn (adamakesmerock)

[ForAdam]

I have been researching the whole Robbie Wills/AT&T connection and found some interesting quotes. These were from people at a party:

Cousins Jackalyn Barton, 12, of Guy and Madison Shaw, 13, of Conway, brought a sign that said, "Blister on my thumbs Voted 250,000 times."

Lynda Harmon, Barton's grandmother and Shaw's aunt, said the two lost an hour of voting time learning from another cousin how to super mega power text, but then they ended up being able to send 450 votes at a time from one phone and 100 at a time from another phone from 9 p.m. to midnight.

Julie Ivy said, "I voted from 8 (p.m.) to 12 (midnight) on five phones dialing, and from 10 (p.m.) to 2 in the morning I voted with an AT&T Go Phone with a west coast phone number so I could vote for two extra hours. And all six hours were worth it. That two seconds when he announced (Allen's) name all four months I would do it all again in a heartbeat."

Source: http://www.thecabin.net/stories/052109/ ... 0007.shtml


When I went into AT&T to buy a 2nd phone I asked them about buying one in a different time zone and they said I couldn't because you needed a drivers license. Strange. Now we have some real stories with real names.

[nymichael]

Hi everybody!

I wanted to say hello, thank you, and welcome! My hope is that this discussion will create positive, concrete action items to suggest to 19/Fremantle for next season. Ultimately, a report with details on the confusion on the AI message boards, the uncertainty of multiple text and VOIP voting, clarification on international voting, etc. would be helpful and media worthy.

Adam really was an equal winner with his tremendous success and popularity (some would say even more of a winner). While I agree there was far too much confusion about the voting (see my Blog posts for a lot of detail) Adam has been a leader and set a great example about being positive and moving forward and I hope everyone looks to Adam for inspiration as we watch his incredible trajectory to stardom.

Thanks again and looking forward to your insights and ideas.

Best, Michael

[Tommyis18]

I have been researching the whole Robbie Wills/AT&T connection and found some interesting quotes. These were from people at a party:

Cousins Jackalyn Barton, 12, of Guy and Madison Shaw, 13, of Conway, brought a sign that said, "Blister on my thumbs Voted 250,000 times."

Lynda Harmon, Barton's grandmother and Shaw's aunt, said the two lost an hour of voting time learning from another cousin how to super mega power text, but then they ended up being able to send 450 votes at a time from one phone and 100 at a time from another phone from 9 p.m. to midnight.

Julie Ivy said, "I voted from 8 (p.m.) to 12 (midnight) on five phones dialing, and from 10 (p.m.) to 2 in the morning I voted with an AT&T Go Phone with a west coast phone number so I could vote for two extra hours. And all six hours were worth it. That two seconds when he announced (Allen's) name all four months I would do it all again in a heartbeat."


When I went into AT&T to buy a 2nd phone I asked them about buying one in a different time zone and they said I couldn't because you needed a drivers license. Strange. Now we have some real stories with real names.

Just a note to mention, I recall reading in MyIdol a post that said the phones supllied by AT&T had Cali numbers. It did not say if all did or some did. It did not say if the phones were used in voting parties or handed out to customers who went home. In any case, a cooperative store clerk can make it happen on anyone's account. That is not so wrong under certain circumstances. This practice might violate rules. Depending on the circumstances, it might violate law.

It is very different if AT&T accounts were used for the purpose of voting on AI, and provided to customers to vote on "advantaged" lines, as in lines either not restricted or governed or on lines that had a Cali number, or both. This requires government intervention to investigate. This could add up to conspiracy between AT&T and select customers to cheat and scam the voting system, on a show which they sponsor. Regardless of any of this, the FCC should have access to auditable logs to prove if accounts that are owned by AT&T were used to vote (whether recorded as a vote or not) or attemted to vote (busy signal or not).

With the phone number portability law, anybody can move an existing number they currently have on one account, to another phone account. I know people who have numbers in NYC, but live in PA

When a person opens an account, the account holder is required by law to show ID (photocopied), have credit and have an address - due to a series of steps to prevent (though it does not stop) criminals from using the phone for criminal acts (though they still do). However, it is less clear with disposable phones.

Another example, I never showed ID in Europe for any SIM card (same type of account/number card used in AT&T, TMobile and other phones which use GSM). I could easily call from the US to vote in London on BGT, for instance (I don't but it does work).

There are many places where anyone can get phone numbers all over the world. Usually they can only be used for receiving calls on an existing account, and not outgoing calls. There are exceptions. With Vonage or any Internet/Cable VOIP phone number, you can get an account number in area codes all over the US. You can get additional incomming numbers that are in Canada, Mexico, England, Fance, Ireland, Italy, etc. Other services offer numbers in any country. Presumably, you can move any US based number to your US mobile phone or home landline phone - especially if the clerk cooperates, because the internal system will look only at the name and address of the account holder. I'm sure there's a way to do it internationally, too. The phone companies do not like this, because they charge businesses a lot of money for a number outside their exchange. Businesses often have offices and lines all of the US connected by a network. Numbers are not supposed to be portable accross countries, but savy people do it.

Point is, there are dozens of ways to manipulate the system.

T.

-------------------
Adam Onward !!!

[Karen]

Point is, there are dozens of ways to manipulate the system.

And we need to document as many of them as possible and present it to Idol to convince them change has gotta' come ....

[ForAdam]

When I went into AT&T to buy a 2nd phone I asked them about buying one in a different time zone and they said I couldn't because you needed a drivers license.

My point was that people keep saying that Adam's fans could have gotten help from AT&T also if we had asked for it and that is was our fault for not asking for it. I did ask AT&T for it, both in person and on the phone, and didn't get it. A lot of other people did also and didn't get help.

[jellibeanz3737]

Well, I am getting nowhere with ATT. I think we are probably going to have to turn some of this over to the FCC. They are the ones to investigate our questions/concerns as to some of our complaints. So, I am just going to get this contact info. placed here in case anyone else wants to log a complaint as well. I would recommend writing rather than emailing, but both will be listed:

Federal Communications Commission
Consumer & Government Affairs Bureau
Consumer Inquiries & Complaints Division
445 12 Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554

http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm

FRAUD BY WIRE IS A FEDERAL CRIME

[canadian4adamlambert]

Hi Everyone,

Joining the AI forum board as a fan of Adam - was a first for me. I never have been interested enough to learn about a certain contestant ever.

Yes, I do have some info. As regards Gizmo. One can spoof the outgoing phone number to the area code of their choice. When one calls AI, what appears is only that outgoing phone number. It is untraceable, because Gizmo guarantees ones privacy if they buy that service. There are many other companies that allow *spoofing phone numbers* - just do a search for it.

As regards votes by IP Address, my laptop is set up to have a different IP address every time I log on. I can spoof my information on it to, if I wanted to do so.

I can say one thing, I never learned so much about illegal practices of voting until I joined AI. Every contestants has their fans who know how to do the power voting and all the other stuff. Legal or not legal.

Then there is Magic Jack which allows one to have a legal USA number with any area code. One can buy multiple Magic Jacks for east coast and west coast area codes. Now does it work - so of. When phone numbers are jammed, and I did ask Magic Jack about it, they said the problem was at the receiving end.
I asked very specific questions at Magic Jack's supervisory level - all of them said what problems where being had with their product was because of the receiving end of the phone call - in other words the problem was with AT&T.

That being said - it is very easy to get knowledge on how to do illegal voting procedures. If anyone needs further info please just pm me.

Hugs,
Joanne

[Adams No1Fan]

There is some very interesting and useful information in all these posts. Great to have such smart committed fans on here. I think we will need to pull this all toghether and address our compliants along with the detailed information (and having those names to refer back to is terrific). I love the idea of using spreadsheets and charts. Shows we are not crazy fans -- but have thought this all out locially and show where things do not add up -- where the questions are that demand answers.

Right now this is still current news -- but don't forget like any other news story -- if isn't current -- it loses relevancy. We cannot take too long in getting all the reseach done -- compiling the information and then getting in the proper hands -- to those that can force the answers. We are going up against some very big guns. We need not only to have our ducks in a row -- but we need to have them presented by someone that can blow this up. We need to get all this documented and bound together. I say a strong media person is best. If they print all this damaging evidence -- Big guns or not -- there is only so much damage control they can do then.

Getting this in the right hands is KEY now. IF anyone here has access to a strong journalist -- one is not easily intimidated. If not then lets put some names out there then we together can choose whom to send this all to.

As stated we have done a lot of great research -- but we musn't delay too long !

L

[canadian4adamlambert]

Just to throw this out there (please do not stone me LOL)

How many people think Disney had a hand in this? Let's face it Kris and his wife fit what Disney wants to project and advertise. Disney would not think Adam "as appropriate" - I hate to put it like that. This is just my personal opinion of corporate America, and Disney's target audience.

Did Disney have a hand in this? Or am I way out on a limb here?

Hugs,
Joanne

[Adams No1Fan]

I think it is hard pressed to say who all had a hand in the outcome. Fox is run by a very conservative corporation. Yes they allowed Adam to be promoted all through the season -- it got their rating up for certain. Was the outcome maneuvered by outside interests?? If we could find any posting that can confirm this --- it would be great. I have been on the boards for weeks -- this has been speculated but I've never seen any confirmation. If anyone has any inside contacts that might be a way to find out more. For now -- with all the info we do have confirmation of I think we need to follow that path.

[adamsthebomb]

Jellibeanz3737 said:
Well, I am getting nowhere with ATT. I think we are probably going to have to turn some of this over to the FCC. They are the ones to investigate our questions/concerns as to some of our complaints. So, I am just going to get this contact info. placed here in case anyone else wants to log a complaint as well. I would recommend writing rather than emailing, but both will be listed:

Federal Communications Commission
Consumer & Government Affairs Bureau
Consumer Inquiries & Complaints Division
445 12 Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554

http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm

FRAUD BY WIRE IS A FEDERAL CRIME


Last week I mailed letters to the FCC, my US Senators, the Federal Attorney General office, my State Attorney General office, AT&T, and American Idol (informing Idol who else I was writing to). The two areas I focused on were the directing of communications traffic, and the purchase of a GO phone in which none of the text votes were confirmed or counted.

I wrote the letter to the FCC because Tommy had suggested personal letters. But I also filed a complaint online with the FCC ---it was so satisfying to be assigned an actual complaint number! So, I suggest doing both. The complaint # gave me immediate gratification.

Tommy had written a great post about a week ago (consumer marketing or media thread), and maybe it should be posted here again, on who to write letters to. Tommy-what do you say?
(Sorry if it is already posted in this thread, I was scanning quickly through the posts tonight)
Best to all, Yvonne

[adamsthebomb]

I posted this in the Kara thread yesterday, it related somehow, but I'll post here also:

What's the best way to destroy a GO phone??? I want something very spectacular, and haven't found the right way yet ,

So my thought for today is, too bad we don't all live closer together so we could destroy them together and invite the press.

We could organize a common destruct time, and method, and inform our local news of our online destruction party....OK, guess I'm getting far out here. Anyone, let me know if you would like to destroy your phone with me--I think it might be quite cathartic!

Best to all, Yvonne

[ForAdam]

OK, I edited my post above about the super mega power texting to include the link if anyone wants to document it.

Also, the Washington Post seems like the first paper that didn't just print the statement of AT&T & Fox but also challenged it.

That statement is a classic case of Crisis Management 101: Don't answer the question you're asked
("Did AT&T provide help booths at Kris Allen fan viewing parties last Tuesday?") and answer the
question you want to answer.

link: http://wap.twp.mlogic3g.com/detail.jsp? ... l=1#___1__

This could be a good reporter who might tackle this.

[Adams No1Fan]

Great attachment from the Post. I do agree -- I think Lisa de Moraes, would be a very good reporter to send our information to. From the attached link it was obvious she did not "buy into" the damage control drival coming from both AT&T and Idol. She was quick to question if Lamber camps got the same AT&T treatment (we know there was no such thing). Once we throw all that data and numbers at her. I think she will be very interested. And of course when we come up with the phone lines being made unaccessible -- I truly think she will know this is a BIG STORY. I did feel in reading her article -- that she wanted to push this further but did not have all the facts.

We DO -- lets pull this all together. I really think as stated earlier -- we cannot delay on this. It has to be newsworthy and current to get the investigation to happen.

[Tommyis18]

I posted this in the Kara thread yesterday, it related somehow, but I'll post here also:

What's the best way to destroy a GO phone??? I want something very spectacular, and haven't found the right way yet ,

So my thought for today is, too bad we don't all live closer together so we could destroy them together and invite the press.

We could organize a common destruct time, and method, and inform our local news of our online destruction party....OK, guess I'm getting far out here. Anyone, let me know if you would like to destroy your phone with me--I think it might be quite cathartic!

Best to all, Yvonne

Here is my late night half-asleep thoughts:
Don't waste it on a one time thing. Like employee matching funds in a 401K, it should have a payback that keeps on giving:

• Several people around the US should join together for a video complation,
  
• Post the final product on YouTUBE, and therefore know from the start it won't have anything that Youtube can find as a reason to delete it (music, copyrights, legal destruction, etc)
  
• Each person should video tape a segment for their phone being destroyed and send it to the one who compiles, full credits provided to all,
  
• Destruction in a way that is a real attention grabbing legal way - for kids, teens and adults (i can think of dropping off a tall building, run over by a steam roller, a dog pissing on it and then burried, left on a sidewalk and as people pass by, they pick it up and see it's an AT&T GO phone so they put it back, and it's there as weather changes, day and night, seasons, etc., no body keeps it, not even a thief or homeless person.
  
• The reason made clear, in a creative way - aka "People with AT&T GO phones could not get votes through to American Idol, as expected." (Clearly, this cannot be refuted.)
  
• The vid compiled by someone who's good at this, and make it fun to watch over and over (Maybe the "I kissed a girl and I liked it" tune with "I smashed a GoPhone n liked it")
  
• Encourage other people to do the same and post their vids.

Hopefully, a simple vid will add a lot of fuel to the anti AT&T fire. If it works, it would be like the many vids created which lip sync to the dance song Numa Numa (Dragostea Din Tea) by the Romanian pop band O-Zone. That would be success.

T.

--------------------
Adam Onward !!!

[jellibeanz3737]

Lori...sorry, had some family problems yesterday and couldn't get back on. Getting ready for work now, 2 days of 12 hour shifts. I live about 45 miles NE of Atlanta, where are you located? I used to live in Lawrenceville...now I am closer to Athens. Ok, have a productive and great day everyone. Kathy

[Grnbn1]

I posted this in the Kara thread yesterday, it related somehow, but I'll post here also:

What's the best way to destroy a GO phone??? I want something very spectacular, and haven't found the right way yet ,

So my thought for today is, too bad we don't all live closer together so we could destroy them together and invite the press.

We could organize a common destruct time, and method, and inform our local news of our online destruction party....OK, guess I'm getting far out here. Anyone, let me know if you would like to destroy your phone with me--I think it might be quite cathartic!

Best to all, Yvonne

Here is my late night half-asleep thoughts:
Don't waste it on a one time thing. Like employee matching funds in a 401K, it should have a payback that keeps on giving:

• Several people around the US should join together for a video complation,
  
• Post the final product on YouTUBE, and therefore know from the start it won't have anything that Youtube can find as a reason to delete it (music, copyrights, legal destruction, etc)
  
• Each person should video tape a segment for their phone being destroyed and send it to the one who compiles, full credits provided to all,
  
• Destruction in a way that is a real attention grabbing legal way - for kids, teens and adults (i can think of dropping off a tall building, run over by a steam roller, a dog pissing on it and then burried, left on a sidewalk and as people pass by, they pick it up and see it's an AT&T GO phone so they put it back, and it's there as weather changes, day and night, seasons, etc., no body keeps it, not even a thief or homeless person.
  
• The reason made clear, in a creative way - aka "People with AT&T GO phones could not get votes through to American Idol, as expected." (Clearly, this cannot be refuted.)
  
• The vid compiled by someone who's good at this, and make it fun to watch over and over (Maybe the "I kissed a girl and I liked it" tune with "I smashed a GoPhone n liked it")
  
• Encourage other people to do the same and post their vids.

Hopefully, a simple vid will add a lot of fuel to the anti AT&T fire. If it works, it would be like the many vids created which lip sync to the dance song Numa Numa (Dragostea Din Tea) by the Romanian pop band O-Zone. That would be success.

T.

--------------------
Adam Onward !!!

Tommyis18, you must have had some prior experience with this stuff. Your idea is excellent because I've noticed when something hot hits UTube, there's no stopping it, at least for long enough to get the desired affect. It makes my little action of cancelling my AT&T home service look feeble. I emailed them my reason, and got an email back saying I needed to call them as my "issue" didn't fit in with the items they address by email. Either way, they are not getting my money anymore, which is louder than words....EXCEPT your idea will be louder since it will inspire others to action, along with news reports, investigations, etc. I hope someone who knows how to pull it together will do so. I will do my part by watching it, and passing it on to anyone I can, along with forwarding to recommended news sources, etc. I did that on the AI site and the next day it hit the local papers big time. The power of numbers, I hope. Anyway, carry on, please.

[Karen]

Just spotted this article on "Associated Content" website ... it at least doesn't downplay the AT&T involvement, but he/she also calls for a limited number of votes per person. You don't see that comment in the mainstream press very often. Pretty fair and balanced article (it goes on for 4 pages).

I'll try to post the URL (haven't done this in this forum before): http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1788590/is_american_idol_rigged.html?cat=33

[Tommyis18]

Tommyis18, you must have had some prior experience with this stuff. Your idea is excellent because I've noticed when something hot hits UTube, there's no stopping it, at least for long enough to get the desired affect. It makes my little action of cancelling my AT&T home service look feeble. I emailed them my reason, and got an email back saying I needed to call them as my "issue" didn't fit in with the items they address by email. Either way, they are not getting my money anymore, which is louder than words....EXCEPT your idea will be louder since it will inspire others to action, along with news reports, investigations, etc. I hope someone who knows how to pull it together will do so. I will do my part by watching it, and passing it on to anyone I can, along with forwarding to recommended news sources, etc. I did that on the AI site and the next day it hit the local papers big time. The power of numbers, I hope. Anyway, carry on, please.

Using AT&T Phones on Non AT&T Service Providers:
In case you choose to not martyr your phone. I want to point out, that your "GO" phone or any other AT&T phone can be used on other services that use GSM. A GO phone or regular AT&T phone is programmed for AT&T but can be re-programmed ("unlocked") for use on other service providers, or for regular AT&T service. When requested, AT&T will "unlock" your regular phone after 6 months of service. They almost never unlock a GO phone because those phones are cheap and they want phone revenue. Many places unlock phones, particularly outside the US where it's a standard practice.

Technical Info:
The original big phone service providers in North America (NA), Verizon (Bell companies) and Sprint, use a Qualcomm proprietary network architecture technology called Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA). CDMA phones are strongly tied to a single service provider. Other than changing chips inside, they are useless outside of a specific carrier.

AT&T, T-Mobile in NA, and service providers in most of the rest of the world use a network architecture technology called Global System for Mobile Communication (GSM). GSM phones use a SIM card to identify an account with your service provider account. The SIM card is designed to be easily interchanged with other GSM phones. Though a GSM phone can be programmed for only one service provider, it can be easily re-programmed (unlocked). GSM broadcasts on 14 bands, but 3 bands cover most of the world, and 4 cover all of it. Bands 850 and 1900 MHz are in the US, Canada, most of rest of the Americas and Australia. Bands 900 and 1800 MHz are in most of rest of the world, particularly Europe and parts of Asia and a few countries in the Americas. Unlocking a phone is common practice outside of North America. Some web sites offer instructions.

Re: Conversation about Phone Numbers Outside Your Zip Code/Local Area:
I made a point of visiting several different type of mobile phone outlets.

Question: Can I get a phone number from another area code on my phone?

Answer 1 from a vendor of multiple service companies (such as costco, mall kiosks, best buy etc): Yes, as long as it is not too far. I questioned why not Alaska for instance. He said he doesn't know, so he asked his supervisor. The supervisor said he would put on any number from anywhere I wanted in the US.

Answer 2 from a vendor of multiple service companies (such as costco, mall kiosks, best buy etc): No. When pressed, she said, YES. We can put in a house address in the area you want, and then we'll change the address for your account to your real address.

Answer 3 from a CDMA vendor (such as Verizon or Sprint, as example): Not from the store but customer service can help you out. Customer service said no, but when pressed, said with number portability, yes. When asked about a specific situation, I was told, if I have a good address in another area, it can be used to open an account with a number in that area (of your "second home" for instance), then we can change the account to address on your main home/drivers license, as soon as the service is active.

Answer 4 from a GSM vendor (such as AT&T, T-Mobile, as example): note, this was a store and not a small vendor spot. No. When pressed and I explained the above example, he said, we can change your A record and make it work, but you should go to the company store on ... street. They probably have more access to the system to help you.

General Convo:
Most of these were not quick conversations. Two places did not ask my reason. Two did. I said I have two phones on different service providers (I said T-Mobile and Verizon). I said, when I asked blahblah (I named one) and blahblah said, yes, and so I just want to confirm. Also, I pointed out my reason - I said I travel a lot and only use one phone for friends at home. I said my Grandmother calls a lot, too. She does not have a cell phone, and I'd like mine to be local to her so she can call me anytime without a long distance call, especially when I'm running around out and about while visiting her. The tone changed and both seemed like it's possible and one said how. The other guy seemed clueless, as he was rather clueless about everything in his store. He sent several customers away.

Felt them up about Texting:
None of them admitted to watching Idol. I asked all of them about power texting. One said, any phone can send multiple texts to different numbers. The clueless guy said many AT&T phones can power text. (Oops I outed the AT&T guy as really stupid.) None of them knew the real reason Idol pushed AT&T phones for power texting to Idol. That was a mystery to all of them. None of them knew the reason GO phones were pushed on Idol, unless they felt it was to push an AT&T service for people who have some other service provider.

When there is a will there is a way.

T.

--------------------
Adam Onward !!!

[adamsthebomb]

Tommy is 18 said:

The vid compiled by someone who's good at this, and make it fun to watch over and over (Maybe the "I kissed a girl and I liked it" tune with "I smashed a GoPhone n liked it")


Can't respond---still laughing too hard.

[canadian4adamlambert]

Hi Tommy,

I cannot believe that these sales reps are basically allowing spoofing of addresses even. I remember when my husband was looking up the laws for the USA under phone ID spoofing and depending on the State there can be criminal charges placed.

Glad I am up here. *shhh don't tell my son - he's a cop!*

I am really surprised at all of this. There was a great deal of planning in this. Just my opinion though.

Hugs,
Joanne

[Adams No1Fan]

Thank Tommy for all that leg work. It is obvious that it is possible to get phone numbers from anywhere if you are persistant. It is also obvious that a lot of work went into the scam and it was planned in advance. As some article I recenlty read that talked about the voting parties in Arkansa with AT&T Balloonns and table cloths. I don't think those few sales reps who just got carried away walk around with AT&T promotional material in their back pocket.

All this was a planned and organized effort. I am a special events planner and I know exactly all the work that goes into this effort. Considering the numbers involved this was a large team effort... with professionals organizing if they weren't on hand to execute. Yes we can video stomping our phones and putting our contracts with AT&T on fire.-NO MORE AT&T PHONE SERVIFCE - maybe make a big circle -- "RING OF FIRE" -- ooh that was bad!

Is there a way we can get charts made and all this information put in a documented factual form. Without our burning emotions !!

We need to get this publiciized or all we will realling have is a grievance comitttee full of anger but without results.

PS -- KATHY --I'm in Alpharetta!

[adamakesmerock]

I am a true novice at this, but I will tell you that after the crushing blow, I was on the computer nonstop. I happened to pull up the link for the Arkansas Democrat Gazette A T & T article. It had a prompt to send as an e-mail, so I sent it to Edward Wyatt of the New York Times - why did I do this? I had just read his previous article on American Idol. I've never heard of Edward Wyatt, but obviously he and the NY Times have a lot of clout, because the media ran wild with it after he published the "A T & T Swaying the American Idol Vote?" the very next day. I don't know for a fact if it was the article I sent him, but it was awfully coincidental. Obviously the Arkansas paper just doesn't reach many people. The beautiful thing about this is now the world has doubts about the voting - Kris will never have a clear title - so the honest exposure of this gives me satisfaction. Sorry for Kris if he didn't know what was going on - but did he? I have also read that AI helped organize the voting venues in Arkansas - anyone know if that's true - if so, how can we find that out? That would be a plum story!!

The best way we can get results or an investigation going is with a good reporter. I have e-mailed Rick Casey of The Houston Chronicle, because his efforts exposed a federal judge who is now in prison for sexual harrassment. I've filed a complaint with the head guy at the FCC - they are the ones who are going to have to investigate this. What we really need is a good private investigator. I just don't know where to go next - any ideas?

[amazedbyadam]

Tommyis18,

I purchased a GoPhone at WalMart and took it to an AT&T location in a mall, where I requested a California area code and phone number. My story was similar to yours--an elderly aunt who wanted to text vote on Idol. I can't imagine that the salesman really believed me!

Anyway, after much data input ( just WHAT are they typing in that takes so long?!? ), I received just what I wanted--a California phone number with unlimited texting. It was relatively easy to do. The hard part was staying up an extra 3 hours to text like a madwoman. My fingers may not have bled, but they were certainly getting numb after SEVEN HOURS of non-stop texting for our guy!

Eleanor

[ForAdam]

This was just posted in the other forum:
http://idolvotesnow.wordpress.com/

It brings up some good points and wants an FCC investigation.

[Xica123]

This was just posted in the other forum:
http://idolvotesnow.wordpress.com/

It brings up some good points and wants an FCC investigation.

Very interesting the person researched and founded on the AT&T website under the media newsroom section dated May 22nd, 2009. "AT&T reported today that more than 178 million text messages crossed its network as fans interacted with the country's No. 1 TV show this season - the highest total for any season and more than double the 78 million mesageds AT&T reported last year.

[jellibeanz3737]

More food for thought:

Power Texting: http://hubpages.com/hub/power-texting

Another Angle: http://www.votefair.org/americanidol.html

[Adams No1Fan]

i think we put together two complete packages one for Rick Casey the Houston Reporter , the other Edwin Wyatt - NY Times. Be fair and say we only sent this to one other person -- up to them if they want to break the story. Reporters LOVE competition. Say we both know they are fair, unbiased and not swayed by corporate giants. Yes stroke the ego some. Our reports need be be consise. There was somone on here much earlier post who did graphs and charts and was willing to help. This would make a very professional presentation. We need to include all the articles of damaging information we dug up. Include all the incriminating posts -- especially the recent one that named names -- those with Rob Wills. Various posts of average folks from all over the country who did NOT get through for 3 hours. People who say they wrote to the FCC -- without any results at this time.

I am happy to help pull this togehter in any way. Carolyn is that you contacting Houston Chronicle. Are you near their office? I think it all needs to be sent special delivery and signed for. It needs to be put together very professional. We have wonderful helpers on here. Lots of great information. Now we need to pull it toether and get it delivered to the right hands. IF we dont' get this time we lose the time element and it is all for naught. Nothing will ever be resolved.

I am happy to talk on her or the phone with anyone who wants to form a group and get this put together and delivered. That was the reason to start this forum in the first place -- TO RESOLVE THESE ISSUES and get CHANGES MADE!

Let me know who wants to actually get beyond the posts and put this together now!
THANKS,
LORI

[jellibeanz3737]

Lori, I agree, the time to act is ASAP. If someone could and has the time to outline what we have, that would be good. However...what we have proves 1) unethical behavior by a corporate sponsor (and they have admitted this...however not to the extent that we believe it happened.) Is this illegal or just unethical? 2) Does someone have the actual copy of the students bragging that "THE FIX" was successful? 3) Does anyone have the actual print of how the students were also going to try to "tie up" Adam's phone lines? Any evidence we can present to the media in regards to above is needed.

What we DO NOT have...to my knowledge is 1) Did ATT regulate the flow of calls in regards to Adam's and Kris's voting numbers? 2) Did Fox regulate the flow of incoming calls as well and 3) Did Fox "throw out" any votes that were clearly against the rules? This is where the FCC may be the only "body" able to get some of these records (the phone lines). And I highly doubt Fox will reveal if they did throw out large blocks of votes, as they were supposed to according to their own rules.

Taking this to the media lacking the things we do not have...would the media be able to dig deeper...or hurry the FCC along?

And, as to motive...was this "predetermined" by Fox? Or, was the government of Arkansas needing the win so bad for their own agenda's? Robbie Wills obviously had an "in" with someone at ATT, because he wrote his article for his web page 6 hours or so before the finale ever began and he knew the results already.

It is clear we need media and investigative help.

[adamakesmerock]

I agree - we need to get moving. I live 100 miles from Houston, but there's always Fed Ex. We need comments from everyone as to what they would be willing to research:

1. comments on how lines were jammed
2. comments on reporting to FCC with no answers
3. threads on forums that describe what happened
4. graphs and charts as Lori mentioned
5. all articles on A T & T interference
6. I printed the krisallenation site, as I feared they would take it down.
7. anything else anyone can think of

Time is really of the essence here - however, it may be on our side, because we can affirm that we have tried to get to the bottom of this, but that we have had no answers, and we need someone who can delve into this with greater access to information.

Thanks,

Carolyn

[amazedbyadam]

You know, it seems to me that many of the articles and reports are misunderstanding exactly what the voting problem was with the power texting. I keep reading that the injustice is basically that Kris' fans (some of them) were shown how to power text and Adam's weren't, implying that only Kris' fan base at the parties in Arkansas knew how to power text. This is not at all what happened. BOTH fan bases, at least the ones on the Idol website, knew very well how to power text and did exactly that for an insanely long amount of time. In fact, I believe that Danny Gokey's fans were power texting as well when he was still competing. The power texting was done with the knowledge and approval (at least on Adam's forum) of the moderators, so it can't really be said that the power texting itself was scandalous.

The problem is that a sponsor of Idol (AT&T) stepped in and assisted only one of the contestants--huge conflict of interest, especially if they stood to gain monetarily in any way. If they had offered phones, charging stations, and texting lessons to voters for both Adam and Kris, no one could be complaining now. I also wonder if they supplied Kris' fans with phones that could send more than the usual amount of texts at one time. There was quite a bit of "back and forth" on Adam's forum in the days before the Finale as to just how many texts could be sent at one time. I think the consensus was 20--the phones didn't seem to be able to handle any more than that. If AT&T had "special" phones that could handle as many as 50 texts at a time and handed THOSE phones out at the Kris parties, well, that could certainly answer the question of how 38 million votes could come from a state of less than 3 million people!

I also have to wonder if there was a way for AT&T to open the phone lines in Arkansas somehow so that more of the power texts sent would actually make it through. I know that on my phones (I was texting with three different cell phones), I had a huge backlog of texts in the outboxes waiting to go through--many of which never made it during the alloted timeframe.

Anyway, my main thought is that we should be careful not to condemn the power texting itself, although I'd like to see that capability eliminated in future seasons. One vote per phone works for me!

[Karen]

This is an excellent post, and clearly explains a point I have tried to make several times on other forums without much success ... people seem to be hung up on the power texting being either illegal or available only to Kris, neither point being true. What is true is that Kris' fans got something free that Adam's fans had to pay for.

A potentially more critical issue with the AT&T phone, as mentioned earlier by Tommyis18, is if some of those phones were for different time zones, when the average Joe walking into an AT&T store without enough knowledge to "push" was told they couldn't get one.

In the long run, I think the jamming of the lines and AT&T/Idol's inability to determine that and correct it, and possibly not throwing out Gizmo votes, is even more relevant to the results.

[jellibeanz3737]

Karen, and Amazedbyadam...I agree. We had people telling us in the forums how to power text. However, I, and many others, were not able to. I tried various methods, and I even called my ATT store where I purchased my Go phone, and they said if all going to the same number, would be only 1 call/vote. I DIDN'T HAVE THE BENEFIT OF SOMEONE HAND FEEDING IT TO ME. Nor, did many others. But, at the large watch parties in ARK. they had the entire thing set up for them, with representatives to assist. And we do not know (except for heresay) if they also passed out phones loaded with Cali. area codes so they could vote for 7 hours.

Did someone in government office in ARK. ask ATT to help? Must have, and gotten the results all typed up and ready to go 6 hours prior to the results show even being on the air,as well as announcing that 38 million votes were cast by the state of Ark. The last part of that is verifiable. Very unethical...but is it illegal?

I don't know if anyone but the FCC can demand to see ATT activity logs. I think if we could get this, it may answer some of our questions.

And it is amazing that the week before...the votes were, what...88million? In 2 hours. Now we go to 4 hours and only have 100 million? HUH??? Nothing is making sense here. Thousands of Adam fans trying to get thru to phone vote getting almost solid busy signals for 3 hours...Heck...it was probably Kris 99 million to Adam 1 million with all the shenanigans going on. No wonder they didn't announce the difference!

There are too many things we have no way of knowing. I think the idea of handing the entirety of what we do know over to several investigative reporters, as well as the FCC is the most we will be able to do by ourselves. I know I will never, ever vote on an Idol show again. Nor, will I have anything to do with any of their sponsors.

My only consolation is that Adam seems so happy, and is so very positive and excited about his future. This alone gives me some sense of peace.

[Adams No1Fan]

I do believe we have "proof" of people in Arkansas at those parties getting though tens of thousands at once. There was an earlier posting on this thread with a link regarding the Arkansas party that came from Rob Wills site. I had names of people saying they got through 25,000 time with just hitting the number once. Those are the posts that are proof -- no one in Adams camp did this. In all the posts and folks I've talked to in two weeks were aware how to do this. I am certain we have posts of those saying they had ca phones provided by AT&T. I actually read this a few times. Anyone he saved any of the original threads go back and look. I have some and and I think a few others do as well. Adam is smart and making the best of a situation that went beyond his control. I am certain a part of him will has feel that others tried to undermine him because he really does know this went down as well. He is just professional enough and confident enough to know he can use all this exposure to his advantage. But we all know --NO ONE likes to feel that others out there tried to hurt your chances in an unfair manner. It wasn't a FAIR FIGHT /COMPETITON and Adam knows that as much as we do. We approach this as Consumers who were robbed and taken advantage of. As Americans who expect Freedom of Speech, Honesty and Integrity. As people that buy and purchase products that are suppose to work. No so much as fans -- then we can get labeled disgruntled. Everyone please pull together all your damaging evidence and lets' get this to the NY Times and Houston papers.

THANKS

[Karen]

I am sitting in a hotel in Chicago with only intermittent internet access for my laptop (free only in the lobby, not in my room). I am keeping up with posts on my iPhone, but am composing this on my laptop and will post later this afternoon. I will be back home in California, with my desktop and continuous internet access, on Sunday afternoon.

I am concerned that we need to begin pulling this together. The next post following this one is intended to be only a rough outline of an approach our letter/complaint might take. I have no pride of ownership and am very open to suggestions, or taking a completely different tack, or turning this over to someone else who wants to run with it. I think we should get one or two people who will take on the task of fleshing this out (I’m willing to be one of them if necessary), and then everyone work back and forth with them and send their supporting data thru email, only posting to this forum when additional information is needed, or a consensus needs to be reached. Posting everything here would make this forum much too lengthy and cluttered to work with. When a more solid draft is completed, it should be posted here for review and approval before sending to the chosen agencies and/or individuals.

I don't know if my draft will even fit in one post, if not I'll split it into two or more.

[Karen]

Here’s my rough outline (sorry, didn't have time to sort out the indentations on this forum ... please just try to follow the numbering:)

We write this letter (file this complaint?) as consumers whose rights and trust have been violated by AT&T, 19Entertainment, Fox Network, Fremantle, Telescope, and American Idol. We contend that votes cast in the recent American Idol Season 8 finale were incomplete, inaccurate, and/or invalid. We also believe that responses to these allegations by AT&T, American Idol, and Fox Network, have been incomplete and misleading, for the following reasons:

1. Limiting text voting to AT&T subscribers unfairly limits voting in states/areas where AT&T has limited coverage.

2. The “few phones” AT&T admitted were provided to Arkansas voters by a "couple of over-enthusiastic employees" is a huge understatement, if not an outright lie.

3. AT&T aided and abetted Arkansas fans in voting outside their own time zones with free phones, while many AT&T stores would not even sell such phones to Adam’s fans.

4. AT&T provided cell phones that were capable of power texting (not all phones are), and showed Arkansas fans how to maximize that capability.

5. AT&T did not monitor incoming phone volumes in a way that would detect jamming of lines, which we believe resulted in many attempted votes not being counted.

6. American Idol (Fremantle, 19Entertainment, Telescope?) did not eliminate votes that were placed using technical enhancements (Gizmo and ???) that unfairly impacted the voting results.

7. Although AT&T appeared to retract the statement that “38 million votes were cast in Arkansas” they, in fact, only stated they could not (would not?) confirm that number.

8. Some newspapers and politicians in Arkansas reported the finale results prior to actual airtime, indicating they had “insider” information.

9. The 100 million votes purportedly cast following the final performance show is an understatement of the votes actually cast or attempted to be cast.

We believe the following items support these contentions. Some of these items are factual and supported by evidence; others are presumed, and we request that they be more thoroughly investigated: (where supporting evidence is too lengthy, it can be attached as “exhibits” and referencde below by Exhibit number).
1. Limiting text voting to AT&T subscribers unfairly limits voting in states/areas where AT&T has limited coverage.
a. Attach coverage maps as exhibites.

2. The “few phones” AT&T claimed were provided by a “couple of over-enthusiastic employees” is a huge understatement, if not an outright lie.
a. Insert quote from fans claiming there were thousands of fans who were assisted by AT&T.
b. Point out evidence of pre-planning (booths, tablecloths, logo balloons, etc.)
c. Any evidence of larger numbers of phones?

3. AT&T provided cell phones to Arkansas fans that had phone numbers in other time zones, allowing those fans to vote for up to seven hours instead of the four hours allowed Adam’s fans. When Adam’s fans tried to purchase cell phones with numbers outside their own time zones, they were generally turned away and told it couldn’t be done.
a. Insert evidence with names and dates.

4. AT&T provided phones that were capable of power texting, and showed Kris’ fans how to power text.
a. Not all phones are capable of power texting, and attempts to determine which ones could and which ones couldn’t were often met by confusing or inaccurate statements by employees in AT&T stores, and by moderators on the American Idol forums.
i. Insert evidence
b. Some of Adam’s fans were told by AT&T representatives that multiple texts to the same number would only be counted as one vote.
i. Evidence
c. Adam’s fans who did not have power-text capable phones, or who couldn’t figure out how to power text, were at a disadvantage.

5. AT&T did not monitor incoming phone volumes in a way that would detect jamming of lines, which we believe resulted in many attempted votes not being counted.
a. Insert quotes from college students claiming the jamming of phone lines. Identify software claimed to be used, etc.
b. Insert statements of inability to get thru on Adam’s lines for the 1st three hours, while at the same time Kris’ lines were accepting calls.

6. The voting FAQ’s on the American Idol Forums state that (insert quote saying votes using technical enhancements which will unfairly impact voting results will be eliminated).
a. Students on _______ forum stated that they had used Gizmo (and/or ________) to cast huge numbers of votes for Kris.
b. The moderators on Adam’s forum advised fans not to use Gizmo, that any votes placed with Gizmo would be eliminated as they were outside the accepted guidelines.

7. Although AT&T appeared to retract the statement that “38 million votes were cast in Arkansas” they, in fact, only stated they could not (would not?) confirm that number.
a. Quote actual statement
b. 40% of the votes coming from a state with less than 1% of the country’s population begs investigation.
c. We need to know how many votes came from Arkansas during previous episodes so we can determine if/when they began to impact the results.

8. Some newspapers and politicians in Arkansas reported the finale results prior to actual airtime, indicating they had some “insider” information.
a. Quote actual times that specific statements were released/dated.

9. The 100 million votes purportedly cast following the final performance show is an understatement of the votes actually cast or attempted to be cast.
a. Voting time was increased from 2 hours to 4 hours for the finale so a significantly larger number of votes could be accommodated.
b. It has been shown historically that the finale always produces a significant increase in votes over the number cast in the episodes leading up to the finale.
i. (does anyone have data to support this statement?_
c. Based on the above information, it would have been logical to expect 130+ million votes (my guess, anyone else chime in with a supported estimate) for the finale. The actual numbers of votes from the Top 5 to the finale is: (I’m doing this from memory, I’m in Chicago with my laptop and the actual numbers are at home on my desktop. I’ll be home Sunday and can update to actual then):

The following table is Episode, Total Votes in millions, and the number of increased votes (sorry I can't figure out how to do a table here, it will look better in the final document).

Top 5 -- 47
Top 4 -- 64 -- 17
Top 3 -- 88 -- 24
Top 2 -- 97.5 -- 9.5

Where are the missing votes, and why weren’t they counted?

[Adams No1Fan]

Karen:

Great post/outline. I am all for getting this done with you . In fact I created this forum for that very reason. I do know that Kathy and Carolyn and Patti are very involved and all for helping pull this together as well -- right ladies. Me started to talk about this on my personal email and then moved it here to gather more people with information and those who would want to go the distance to get this done.

When you get back let's all contact me emai: marissasmom@hotmail.com

I think your outine was a perfect start. I think Patti was doing a lot of research on getting those exact quotes... she emailed me at home earlier today. I KNOW we can do this and I KNOWS we push for more coverage. I believe in our cause and our abilities to make a difference.

Karen I am so happy to have your help and involvement.

LORI

[pippy18]

Karen- I think you hit the salient points. I am wondering if a massive petition to back up these contentions would amplify the concerns?
I am figuring we may be able to get a sizable number through all the various sites that have sprung up (the sony site, glambert rock and all the other myriad ones that I don't even know of).
What galls me about the situation is how it echoes the 2000 election (which was essentially decided by Sandra Day O'Connor and not by the American electorate - not to mention all the voting irregularites that occured and were never properly investigated)
If a petition is a possibility, I think it should be made clear that as a voting participant, a consumer and part of the larger television watching audience, that the future AI audience numbers are at stake, as is a negative consumer reaction to AI sponsors (especially[b][/b]AT&T.

[pippy18]

Karen- I think you hit the salient points. I am wondering if a massive petition to back up these contentions would amplify the concerns?
I am figuring we may be able to get a sizable number through all the various sites that have sprung up (the sony site, glambert rock and all the other myriad ones that I don't even know of).
What galls me about the situation is how it echoes the 2000 election (which was essentially decided by Sandra Day O'Connor and not by the American electorate - not to mention all the voting irregularites that occured and were never properly investigated)
If a petition is a possibility, I think it should be made clear that as a voting participant, a consumer and part of the larger television watching audience, that the future AI audience numbers are at stake, as is a negative consumer reaction to AI sponsors especially AT&T

[jellibeanz3737]

Karen...what a wonderful job! I am going to follow your outline as closely as I can. I am going to do my best to keep my emotions out of this as well, and write this as respectfully as possible.

I have been printing out all that I have in triplicate. My jelli email address has been down...took me 2 hours today to get it up and running. This has happened before and I don't know why, but I had to go through all the "tutorial" help steps again. uggggggg At least it is up now and I have access to all articles I had and that were sent to me. My printer is "smokin"...has never had this much of a workout!

My letters will go to 1) FCC 2) Anderson Cooper of CNN 3) A guy I know in Chicago (where I lived most of my life) who has great connections in the media/newspapers. (I will ask him, he may not be able to help me with this...we'll see).

I am going to go ahead and type up my initial letter within the next 2 days, and include any supporting evidence that I have been printing out. Will not mail all of this until I am sure we cannot come up with more "evidence". However, I will not wait longer than next week to mail my "little packages".

Pippy...I don't know if a petition would do any good, in fact may garner negative feelings at this point. There are also people there from "the other side" who may attempt to sabotage our efforts...remember, they frequently "lurk" in Adam's forums. Hopefully not this one!

Lori, again, thank you for all the initiative you have shown in persisting with this quest for truth. And Karen, thank you again for composing a good outline to follow. Carolyn, your 7 point outline is good as well and I will incorporate this with as much info as I have...much of it sent to me by you.

Kathy (my "war" face)

[amazedbyadam]

Wow, Karen, terrific job laying everything out!

I would put in as evidence that AT&T "bragged" that there were 178 million texts that came across on that night, which is a HUGE disconnect from the final vote tally of 97.5 million. From what I understand, the 178 million vote total was only text messages and not phone-in votes, either from land lines or cells. Now, I did only read that figure on one of the forums; I did not see an actual quote from AT&T. But it is certainly worth following up on and could actually be the evidence linchpin proving definitively that the final vote tally was completely off base.

IF American Idol tries to say that the difference is votes that were thrown out, they would have to explain why their own moderators gave approval for power texting. I think they should have to show proof that power texted votes were actually not counted, or were only counted as one vote per text. Or perhaps only Kris' power votes were counted because they were on specifically approved AT&T corporate phones?!?

When all is said and done, I think the truth will come out that the voting on American Idol has been a mess for some time--my personal opinion is that it goes all the way back to the Season 2 finale. Between clogged phone lines (excessive busy signals), inconsistent coverage of AT&T cell towers across the US, and various concerted efforts to manipulate the voting and the outcome (students using Gizmo, the Vote For the Worst website, the AT&T shenanigans in Arkansas), there is NO WAY that an accurate and fair vote count could ever be established. I'm afraid this could well be the downfall of American Idol, regardless of what happens with AT&T, unless they can come up with a new, dramatically different, voting system.

[Karen]

Short, from my iPhone ...I will double check, but I believe the 178 million text votes was the entire season, not just the finale.

[adamakesmerock]

Wow, this enthusiasm is great! I printed some pages of the krisallenation site because I was afraid they'd be taken off, and they are off - nowhere to be found! I made sure that the comment about The Fix printed! I can fax it to you. The ideas look really good. I had called AI and asked if powertexting was okay, and the woman who answered said it was. So that's not the issue, as you all say. The issue is why were there only 100 million votes? - Ryan had even predicted 167 million votes I think! Something wrong occured, and we need to expose it. Someone jammed the lines - no doubt!

Thanks,

Carolyn

[amazedbyadam]

Thanks for the correction, Karen. That's what I get for relying on the ol' memory!!

[Adams No1Fan]

Karen:

I don't have a fax -- but could you scan and email the posts from Kris site that is now gone away. Send to marissasmom@hotmail.com

I rally appreciate the help. I want to get this out to CNN by the weekend. If you are doing individual letters /pacakges let me know. If not and you want to sign on with me -- let me know.

Thanks,
LORI

[poohclark]

Karen:

I don't have a fax -- but could you scan and email the posts from Kris site that is now gone away. Send to marissasmom@hotmail.com

I rally appreciate the help. I want to get this out to CNN by the weekend. If you are doing individual letters /pacakges let me know. If not and you want to sign on with me -- let me know.

Thanks,
LORI

Karen and Lori and all the devoted adam supporters on this "resolve AT&T/Arkansas Situation"

I have been keeping up with you all doing and you got my respect and appreciation.

I have conspiracy theory on this whole "surprise upset vote". The parties are FOX, AT&T and 19-E (AI), while it appears AT&T had done extra, out of the norm support on Kris's voting, would it be possible that it was FOX who want to play safe to make sure the "winner" is a non-controversial so it will not upset big sponsor like Coco-cola (known for their conservation ads and sponsorship) and FOX will not get complaint on the AI. FOX is known for being conservative. Don't forget NEWS CORP who owns FOX spends over 150M a year with AT&T and I will not surprise if AT&T will help if asked. So instead of just announced Kris won at the end, they have to stage it with abnormal votes from Arkansas. The fact the matter is, if the bigger the gap on the vote as quoted by them, the more likely it was fault.

BTW, I used to work for AT&T for about 8 years. I know for fact that there is standard procedure to allocate or blocking I/O traffic resource from one region to the other. This is a mandate for national security and for emergency such as natural disasters. So all these busy out on Adam's lines could have other cause other than voter dialing or the Arkansas college kids doing. Even there is a third party looked at the votes traffic, they would not be able to tell on the routing and the priority that was assigned to each route, they only get the completed transaction records (i.e. calls and text MSG count)

Simon Cowell looked upset in the announcement day morning when he was interviewed and pretty directly said it will be an upset. His body language indicated that he was very much disgusted with the whole thing. Was it because he knew Adam did not win or what something more than that?

Again, it is just a conspiracy theory and maybe I am too imaginary.

While I cannot help much on gathering and writing, but in the event this effort will incur monetary expense, please let me know and I will definitely step up to help.

Hope your plan will work and all the effort will not go wasted.

[adamakesmerock]

Karen:

I don't have a fax -- but could you scan and email the posts from Kris site that is now gone away. Send to marissasmom@hotmail.com

I rally appreciate the help. I want to get this out to CNN by the weekend. If you are doing individual letters /pacakges let me know. If not and you want to sign on with me -- let me know.

Thanks,
LORI

I will get this to you soon!

Carolyn

[adamdevoted]

We keep hearing about posts vanishing from the AI site. Are these posts in violation of the terms and conditions to which we all agree when we join or are they simply removed because of their controversial nature? Is that legal? Is that not cause for further suspicion? Don't utility companies by law have to disclose information to the public? Sorry......lots of questions......no answers.

[jellibeanz3737]

Adamdevoted...I have wondered that as well. If there is no 'foul language" used, or something like that, why do they delete them? I guess we have free speech in America but not on Idol site! I assume, being their site...they can delete anything they want, especially if it puts them in an unfavorable "light". Interesting.

[Adams No1Fan]

The Idol Thread about AT&T Voting and I got suspended twice -- both times I posted the FCC information (email to their chairman). Not a conspiracy ??? No cuss words here -- just darn good info.

I hope in my heart that once we get all this gathered info into the right hands SOMETHING major comes of it.

One thing we have all learned whether it does or not -- it that IDOL/FOX/AT&T , etc... are not very reputable. They have all left a bitter taste in my mouth. I have watched IDOL for the past 7 years -- missed the first one. Saw folks I thought were crazy to win, win. Was disappointed and even angry. BUT what went down this year and all the information we have uncovered will NEVER go away in my heart and mind. This is/was my last year tuning into IDOL. Sorta sad -- loved sharing/watching with my teenager. This year we were both so struck/stuck on the same man. Definatley made us feel good to do this together.... sorry I am off focus here. Bottom line. no more IDOL for me -- but then again -- there is only ONE ADAM -- so it really won't matter!

If anyone has ANYTHING - they want added in a letter / package. Speak up now =PLEASE! Do you all want to do individual packages --- or add names to a select few? COMMENTS PLEASE.

LORI

[Karen]

From the AI Forum rules: "When you joined the forum, you agreed to abide by the Terms of Service (there, it says that the moderation staff reserves the right to remove any post or thread (or you) at any time for any reason)."

Almost all the AT&T forums "poofed" very quickly. Today I notice the MSNBC "rude Diva" forums are poofing. It is clear that Idol censors their forums very tightly. Kudos again to Michael for giving us a safe place to post.

[adamdevoted]

Google this:
washingtonpost.com: Corporate Ethics

....and then question whether ATT/FOX is capable of scandalous behavior. It is hardly implausible that we have been manipulated. Has the idea of a physical (not cyber) petition with all of our names been considered? It is so easy to hit the delete button but it isn't as easy to ignore a document that includes hundreds, if not thousands, of signatures with copies both sent to our congressmen, the FCC, any other utility regulatory commission and all possible medial outlets, including televised programs. The powers that be are probably just biding their time and waiting for our displeasure to simply die down and go away. No doubt those who are avoiding disclosure are hoping for an expiration date. Why wouldn't they? All sensational stories seem to have a short shelf life. Shall we consider the O.J. Simpson case???????? My point is that they will probably opt to wait it all out and count on the fact that our furor will lose steam over time.